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Author Topic: Safe wiring practices  (Read 19546 times)
lhazleton
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« on: October 13, 2011, 11:48:05 AM »

Don't ever try shortcuts when wiring the reactor. Always be sure there is absolutely no way the unit will run if the engine is shut down.
This is the old intake manifold on my Explorer. The reactor was wired to a manual switch only and I forgot to turn it off. After a minute or so, I restarted the engine and the manifold blew apart with a horrendous bang. Cry
If you click on the photo & enlarge, you'll notice the top of the driver side runner is completely gone!
To get home (20 miles), I used Duct Tape to cover the opening. Didn't run great, but it lasted until I got the new manifold. Grin
Much better to do things right! Roll Eyes


* intake manifold.jpg (53.94 KB, 640x480 - viewed 892 times.)
« Last Edit: October 13, 2011, 11:53:21 AM by lhazleton » Logged

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« Reply #1 on: October 13, 2011, 03:12:19 PM »

PROBLEM
Huge backfire on starting engine resulting in damaged manifold and other components.

CAUSE
HHO generator / system is active as soon as ignition is turned on and is producing gas before the engine is going. With a slight delay in turning engine over and accumulated gas there is the potential for a backfire and ignition of accumulated HHO gas.

RESULT
HHO Gen works charging the system with gas and when ignited through engine startup there is damage sustained.

FIX
HHO generator should be wired up so as it is not working when the engine starts and has to be manually started.

Suggested wiring - Positive feed from the ignition or the positive feeding the coil - This lead to a normally open spring push button on the dash with a light either in the button or next to the button. When pressed there is a circuit powering to a relay which engages the power to the generator. The control power for the relay also comes from the ignition.

Process - start the car and when engine running press the HHO button to start the gas production. Make sure that the power continuing to engage the relay is also fed by the ignition circuit so that when the key is turned off the HHO generator powers down and there is no gas produced.

Caution - make sure you have a push button with contacts normally open and contacts only closed when the button is depressed. DO NOT use a button where you press and it clicks on, press again and it clicks off.
« Last Edit: October 17, 2011, 12:28:26 PM by PDJ » Logged

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RCFlyn
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« Reply #2 on: December 08, 2011, 07:04:25 PM »


This is the old intake manifold on my Explorer.

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Ahh, the GOOD Ole days....
Back when Men were Men, Mice were Mice, and Lee was just, Well, LEE....   :-)
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aalejado
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« Reply #3 on: January 12, 2012, 07:50:09 AM »

Don't ever try shortcuts when wiring the reactor. Always be sure there is absolutely no way the unit will run if the engine is shut down.
This is the old intake manifold on my Explorer. The reactor was wired to a manual switch only and I forgot to turn it off. After a minute or so, I restarted the engine and the manifold blew apart with a horrendous bang. Cry
If you click on the photo & enlarge, you'll notice the top of the driver side runner is completely gone!
To get home (20 miles), I used Duct Tape to cover the opening. Didn't run great, but it lasted until I got the new manifold. Grin
Much better to do things right! Roll Eyes
Thanks for the tips lhazleton.  Wink
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fossell
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« Reply #4 on: June 27, 2012, 01:49:13 AM »

Yes  very good warning  Huh But what if i was wanting to feed HHO in to a reserve tank system what would be thoughts on the wiring then ??
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D.O.G.
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« Reply #5 on: June 27, 2012, 06:24:40 AM »

Yes  very good warning  Huh But what if i was wanting to feed HHO in to a reserve tank system what would be thoughts on the wiring then ??

Reserve tank?? Are you saying you want to run the reactor without the engine running?
Please explain what you intend to do/achieve, so I can answer better. Wink
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fossell
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« Reply #6 on: June 27, 2012, 04:07:25 PM »

Yes  very good warning  Huh But what if i was wanting to feed HHO in to a reserve tank system what would be thoughts on the wiring then ??

Reserve tank?? Are you saying you want to run the reactor without the engine running?
Please explain what you intend to do/achieve, so I can answer better. Wink
Well yes at times it may run with engine Off if the reserve tank is not at a predetermined level. I under stand that there will be a drain on battery. if it was to be left on but this is not my intention and the battery could be backed up by solar in the day & another source by night  Huh so that when the car/engine is started it will have pressured HHO . I'm not talking High presser but some thing that can be injected at a metered amount and not just flowing in as it appears it is at the moment (i under stand that there are different ways of getting it to the combustion chamber )but it appears they are let down by the volume & or pressure being produced by the reactor & that is why i want to run a reserve tank type system. In saying all of this i under stand (believe)that once the reserve tank is full(at its best operating level) the reacters output may be governed to the driveing/engine loads.
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D.O.G.
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« Reply #7 on: June 27, 2012, 07:57:03 PM »

 [/quote]Well yes at times it may run with engine Off if the reserve tank is not at a predetermined level. I under stand that there will be a drain on battery. if it was to be left on but this is not my intention and the battery could be backed up by solar in the day & another source by night  Huh so that when the car/engine is started it will have pressured HHO . I'm not talking High presser but some thing that can be injected at a metered amount and not just flowing in as it appears it is at the moment (i under stand that there are different ways of getting it to the combustion chamber )but it appears they are let down by the volume & or pressure being produced by the reactor & that is why i want to run a reserve tank type system. In saying all of this i under stand (believe)that once the reserve tank is full(at its best operating level) the reacters output may be governed to the driveing/engine loads.
[/quote]

OK, that's an ambitious project.
It's something others (me included) have tried to work out before, but let go as being impractical.
The biggest problem is the safety issue. It just isn't safe storing hydrogen and oxygen in the same container, at any pressure.
Storing just the hydrogen is possible, using a splitter reactor. Keeping it contained isn't easy for any extended time however, the molecules are so small they can leak through many materials and any joints are hard to seal.

If you want quick starting response, I'd try a different path.

One idea I had (but never implemented) was to have a "starting reactor", something like + n - n +. It'll be inefficient as anything, but will make lots of gas quickly. My thoughts were to have it run only for the first 30 seconds or so, by which time the main reactor will be producing, then it could be turned off.

That's only one idea, I'm sure an active imagination can dream up any number of viable options.
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myoldyourgold
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« Reply #8 on: June 28, 2012, 04:44:53 AM »

Quote
One idea I had (but never implemented) was to have a "starting reactor", something like + n - n +. It'll be inefficient as anything, but will make lots of gas quickly. My thoughts were to have it run only for the first 30 seconds or so, by which time the main reactor will be producing, then it could be turned off.

Pete, the guys in the frozen North use there HHO reactor to start their diesels in -40 C.  It is turned on for 1 minute and then off and the truck is started.  This does two things.  First the amp draw warms up the battery and the HHO works like starting fluid.  I am thinking of making a timer circuit activated by a push button so they do not forget to turn it off or leave it on to long.  Normally what they do is turn on all the lights get out and spray starter fluid into the air cleaner and then get back in the truck turn off the lights and start the truck.  They like the idea of doing it all from in the truck and not freezing their blanks off. 
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ONE Liter per minute per 10 amps which just isn't possible Ha Ha
D.O.G.
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« Reply #9 on: June 28, 2012, 06:55:48 AM »

Quote
One idea I had (but never implemented) was to have a "starting reactor", something like + n - n +. It'll be inefficient as anything, but will make lots of gas quickly. My thoughts were to have it run only for the first 30 seconds or so, by which time the main reactor will be producing, then it could be turned off.

Pete, the guys in the frozen North use there HHO reactor to start their diesels in -40 C.  It is turned on for 1 minute and then off and the truck is started.  This does two things.  First the amp draw warms up the battery and the HHO works like starting fluid.  I am thinking of making a timer circuit activated by a push button so they do not forget to turn it off or leave it on to long.  Normally what they do is turn on all the lights get out and spray starter fluid into the air cleaner and then get back in the truck turn off the lights and start the truck.  They like the idea of doing it all from in the truck and not freezing their blanks off. 

Wow... Not having any experience with such extreme weather, I never considered having to warm up the battery before starting  Shocked
The last time it snowed at my place was 17 winters ago!
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lhazleton
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« Reply #10 on: November 27, 2012, 12:52:26 PM »


Yes  very good warning  Huh But what if i was wanting to feed HHO in to a reserve tank system what would be thoughts on the wiring then ??
[/quote]

Storing any amount of HHO is dangerous and shouldn't ever be attempted.
Many people are new to all of this and don't realize the dangers. Here's an article from a couple of years back that I'm sure Carter, Pete & SteveO will remember: http://www.vcstar.com/news/2010/jun/17/1-killed-2-injured-in-explosion-in-Simi-Valley-ind/
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fossell
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« Reply #11 on: December 01, 2012, 04:29:25 AM »

 I found this i know what has been said and i under stand the dangers But people are still doing it . See the gas bottle used in this http://news.yahoo.com/blogs/sideshow/urine-powered-generator-unveiled-international-exhibition-234718329.html                                                                                                     
   Petrol fuel tanks have been made safer over the years  Huh so is it possible to make HHO/ HH storage safer Huh
« Last Edit: December 01, 2012, 04:34:26 AM by fossell » Logged

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nermalfrodo
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« Reply #12 on: December 01, 2012, 10:34:18 AM »

I would think the safest way to go would be to separate the hh and the o into separate tanks, then inject them both when ready to use it.  I am no science whiz, but I know that storing any flammable gas with oxygen is very dangerous.  In fact, if you direct pressurized oxygen onto grease, it can ignite the grease.
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nutgone
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« Reply #13 on: January 19, 2014, 09:50:12 AM »

I've been thinking about the power supply problems recently as I want to make a dry cell generator for my dad's car which is a turbo diesel with glow plug starting (being an indirect injection engine it uses the glow plugs even when the engine is warm).

TBH I hadn't thought about the dangers of HHO being generated as soon as the ignition is switched on. On these cars (it's a Peugeot with perhaps the worlds most successful & popular diesel car & light commercial vehicle engine in the world, the XUD engine) it's best to let the glow plugs run their cycle, then sit a further 5-10 seconds before cranking the engine (dunno why, it just works best that way), well all this time HHO gas will be filling up the intake tract (including the expensive intercooler), then as soon as the engine is cranked & an inlet valve opens it will expose a red hot glow plug to the gas & BOOM! Expensive repair bills. (I have heard of this happening).

So, thinking about it I thought we really need a voltage sensing relay, one which will only switch on after the engine is actually running. I don't know about the rest of the world but over here we use these relays for caravan towing electrics. They sense when the engine is running by the voltage being delivered to the battery & only allow current to pass when it reaches normal running voltage. As they are designed to charge a caravan battery bank & run the fridge (a high current drain) they should cope with the cell fine. Most of them are also solid state, so the contacts are never going to corrode or get stuck together.

Of course the other option would be to disconnect the glow plugs altogether & use the HHO system as the starting aid (as was mentioned above for cold weather trucking). But I don't know if this would work on these European indirect injection engines (especially the turbocharged ones as they are slightly lower compression).

The other problem is stopping & starting in quick succession. Should the HHO be turned off a minute or so before the engine is switched off? Or will the heat of the stationary engine help to disperse whatever gas is left in the pipes???

I really don't want to blow my dad's car up, but with these engines being so popular (they were used by countless other car companies around the world) I'm guessing someone out there has done this before & ironed out all the creases.
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D.O.G.
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« Reply #14 on: January 20, 2014, 10:52:08 PM »

Nutgone,

A voltage sensing relay sounds fine for controlling the generator.

As for eliminating a potential gas build-up during a short stop, some folk have added a normally open (electrically closed) dump valve to the generator to vent any residual gasses when the engine stops.
I don't know if that's really necessary, but if it buys peace of mind, why not.

Pete.
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nutgone
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« Reply #15 on: January 21, 2014, 12:51:00 PM »

Cheers Pete. I've also been thinking about a solenoid valve, but a normally closed one in the HHO line to the engine which shuts off with the engine, blocking the HHO line into the air intake. I'm not sure if this would be better than a N/O valve venting to atmos. or maybe even both (they're cheap enough from Hong Kong/China).

I've been watching videos on YouTube of various people's set-ups on various turbo diesel engines & none of them even make mention of the issue, let alone making use of a voltage sensing relay, or even a normal relay but wired via the oil pressure sensor light (which may be a better idea & certainly cheaper if the vehicle electrics work in such a way).

Still, I think it's better to be safe than sorry & even though it's not a commonly heard-of problem I have heard of flash-backs through intercoolers causing damage on occasions, so probably worth taking the precautions.
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nutgone
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« Reply #16 on: January 21, 2014, 12:53:28 PM »

Thinking about it again, a N/O solenoid valve, mounted at the highest point on the system, would probably make the best sense, as any accumulated hydrogen would soon work its way out during a short stop.
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SHORTCIRCUIT
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« Reply #17 on: April 15, 2014, 07:01:47 PM »

I'm just about to build HHO Generator for my car. Planning to implement Hydrogen On Demand for safety reason. I'm thinking of placing ay PWM and that can be turn Off/ ON by my DIY tachometer gauge circuit. This means HHO generator will not produce  Hydrogen if engine rpm was not running or below 400 rpm. Smiley
« Last Edit: April 15, 2014, 07:03:21 PM by SHORTCIRCUIT » Logged
mik3y
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« Reply #18 on: April 12, 2016, 10:02:32 PM »

PROBLEM
Huge backfire on starting engine resulting in damaged manifold and other components.

CAUSE
HHO generator / system is active as soon as ignition is turned on and is producing gas before the engine is going. With a slight delay in turning engine over and accumulated gas there is the potential for a backfire and ignition of accumulated HHO gas.

RESULT
HHO Gen works charging the system with gas and when ignited through engine startup there is damage sustained.

FIX
HHO generator should be wired up so as it is not working when the engine starts and has to be manually started.

Suggested wiring - Positive feed from the ignition or the positive feeding the coil - This lead to a normally open spring push button on the dash with a light either in the button or next to the button. When pressed there is a circuit powering to a relay which engages the power to the generator. The control power for the relay also comes from the ignition.

Process - start the car and when engine running press the HHO button to start the gas production. Make sure that the power continuing to engage the relay is also fed by the ignition circuit so that when the key is turned off the HHO generator powers down and there is no gas produced.

Caution - make sure you have a push button with contacts normally open and contacts only closed when the button is depressed. DO NOT use a button where you press and it clicks on, press again and it clicks off.

Big Thanks for the full details about this, for me as a new driver, this is going to be a great help for future references.

Thanks to lhazleton also for starting the thread.
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