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Author Topic: On MAP sensors and O2 Sensors  (Read 34523 times)
sampojo
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« Reply #25 on: June 22, 2012, 09:51:08 AM »

Last night late I hooked and ran 15 LPM into a 4.3 liter engine and monitored the O2 sensors.  I started with 3 LPM and increased it gradually over about 5 to 10 minutes.  It without question went lean and didn't take long to throw a code and start running like dogie doo and quit.  I do not have a code reader here but based on the O2 reading (lean) it had to be a code showing a faulty O2 or something to do with the O2 sensor or whatever.  This is going to require much more than simple testing to figure exactly what is going on.  The excess O2 has to be coming from the water some how or the steam or HuhHuh  I do know that some part of the water remains(deuterium) in the electrolyte and even though it is very little it could be changing  the water makeup.  What actually happens when the water recombines is above my pay rate and ability to test.  
Roll Eyes
I know this is an old thread but I couldn't stand it.  By the way oldgold WOW on that lab setup if you can run 15lpm!!!   I have to throw in my physics/chem college ed at you two dodo's (especially DirectAutoRepair).  Using a little "stochiometry", we are mixing HHO gas at an O2 concentration of 33% vs air + fuel vapor then probably at something less than 18% O2, and the craziest of of all things happens  Tongue, the O2 sensor senses more O2!!!  DOH!
« Last Edit: June 22, 2012, 09:54:19 AM by sampojo » Logged
myoldyourgold
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« Reply #26 on: June 24, 2012, 02:01:17 PM »

Sampojo, welcome.  This is an old thread.  Lots of water has gone under this bridge sense this post.  I think you missed some of the main points.  One that most think that you should be able to take the HHO out of the picture because it is a perfect mixture and all its components get consumed and revert back to water.  What is left is fuel and air.  This is where they get stumped.  Even though more of the fuel in the combustion chamber gets consumed it still has to use the O2 in the air so where does the excess come from is what is the problem.  Much more is happening in the process than most understand including me.  LOL  Exactly what takes place in the combustion and prior to combustion in the compression stroke is where most of the answers are.  With out the right equipment and knowledge we are not going to be able to explain it totally.  When I have more time I will put together what I feel is actually happening and why the O2 sensor sees less O2.  Just do not hold your breath because I have been very busy and am getting busier.  LOL   That particular experiment was really useless when I look back and really did not prove much more than it was to much. 

15 to 20 LPM is a scarey thing on the bench.  The whole bench and everything connected starts to shake.  You have to have a huge bubbler or it just shoots the water out of the container even if it is open or closed and you must use at least 1 inch ID hose or bigger or it is worse.  It is like a big fountain in 15 gallon barrel full or water.  LOL  No smoking!!! 
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"Democracy is two wolves and a lamb deciding what to have for dinner. Liberty is a well-armed lamb."

ONE Liter per minute per 10 amps which just isn't possible Ha Ha
sampojo
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« Reply #27 on: June 26, 2012, 06:27:12 AM »

Lets see if we can break this "too difficult to understand" down a bit.  Whether the O2 went to form pollutants after combustion or not is a don't care.  Now if it forms CO2 (carbon dioxide, safe non-pollutant in spite of what the EPA and Obama say) vs CO (carbon monoxide, poisonous), you can see this would take an extra oxygen atom, and that sort of total combustion may reduce oxygen levels by a trace amount.  This reaction is probably occurring at concentrations an order of magnitude lower than the concentrations of the injection of extra oxygen by HHO.  I cant remember all the nitrous oxide or sulphate pollutants, but I think they are the acid formulas, sulphuric and nitric.  So to burn an H2SO4 completely would result in an SO2 molecule, which would free a O2 molecule, adding oxygen, essentially cancelling out the complete CO2 burn equation.  The same is true of nitric acid.  So, making a guestimate, I would say the extra oxygen added by HHO is about an order of magnitude larger  than the concentrations occurring at the pollutant burn level, which looks to be a wash on its use or CONTRIBUTION to O2 levels at the tailpipe.  Or how about this thought, complete combustion of pollutants may actually contribute to an increase of O2 levels at the tailpipe, depending upon the amount of nitrous and sulphur pollutants.  I did a lot of pollution monitoring in my first job.  The overriding consideration when mixing gases is the fact that you are displacing 18 or less % O2 air fuel mixture with a 33% O2 rich air-fuel mixture in concentrations probably an order of magnitude greater or more than pollutant levels, (the only thing that is changing out of the engine block with HHO, and at very small concentration levels), and viola, more O2 picked up by the O2 sensor.  Almost forgot, since you get more complete combustion then, you would use less gas, and then less O2, leaving it to be picked up by the sensor, which unless corrected by an EFIE will say lean and throw enough gas in to destroy the effects of complete combustion and HHO as a combustion enhancer.

PS: I am just honing my arguments for my PHD chemistry liberal brother, when I finally get 60mpg on my car.  Don't mind me.
« Last Edit: June 26, 2012, 07:31:25 AM by sampojo » Logged
fireflyer
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« Reply #28 on: October 05, 2012, 02:57:43 PM »

Hi All,

I'm a Noob reading through all this and trying to make sense out of all the 'opinions' flip-flopping on if the o2 goes up or down in an exhaust pipe after combustion in an ICE.  It seems so easy for the whole thing to be cleared up.  Kind of separating out exhaust from what is happening in the intake manifold or combustion chamber.  I am looking at this like a calculation that we can all work back from...  back from the o2 sensor(s).

Knechts, Autozone & many other auto-parts stores will read an ODBII output for free.  Or if you have one just plug it in and read the o2 sensor readings.  Then turn on the HHO generator and measure the o2 sensor readings.  Initially you should get some valid readings before the ECU tries to compensate and enrich or leans the mixture.  So with those of you with access to a car with an HHO generator, what are these results?  Then in order to build a database of knowledge, what was the LPM output of the HHO and the make/ model and engine size in L.  We could start collecting data over time and correlate similarities while learning and reducing the variables.

While you've got the ODBII reader connected you can also measure the before and after for RPM, Timing, Fuel flow and much more on cars that have these sensors.  Of course, as mentioned EGT would be great to know and needed to truly tune an engine.  EGT set-ups are commonly used for tuning mixture in small aircraft for different altitudes (read air density).

I'm not wanting to get flamed nor flame anyone for having your opinions.  I respect all of you who have already built and implemented HHO generators and are working through what works and what doesn't.  I'm just hoping to collect data from from your trials by gathering ODBII (ECU) data with regards to the o2(s) and MAP/MAF sensors (I understand most don't support messing with these).   Once we can agree what's happening in the exhaust, we can the move to the discussion of how the engine ECU responds (this could be a interesting discussion based on years and different ECU complexities), then what are the differences when the HHO input is before or after the MAF/MAP, etc.

Is anyone willing to check the ODBII data with and without the HHO generator running?
Thanks for listening,
Kenny G.
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Vatten
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« Reply #29 on: December 02, 2012, 04:00:46 AM »

No link but here is enough info so Google will find what you are looking for:

Gasoline has a flame speed of 70ft/sec to 170ft/sec
Hydrogen(H2) has a flame speed of 680ft/sec
HHO has a flame speed of 8160ft/sec (mach 7.5)

HHO is NOT H2. Here is where we all need to change our outlook on things.

HHO gas contains 60,000 KJ/m3 of energy at 1 atm.

Hydrogen(H2) gas contains 10,000 KJ/m3 at 1 atm.

H2 is 1/6th the strength of HHO.

As far as the map and O2 censors go by what you say you have not, in my opinion, tried it.  The best proof is to try it and see for your self.  You will be either amazed or not believe your own tests results.  

Everyone enjoy the weekend.  In fact enjoy every weekend!!



Very Good tried and explained this and what a boost at mach 7.5 do with the combustion but unfortunately many technicians and scientists left in the 1800's.
« Last Edit: December 02, 2012, 05:16:25 AM by Vatten » Logged
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