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Author Topic: What Is The Best Cell Plate Configuration & Effectiveness  (Read 123609 times)
lhazleton
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« Reply #125 on: May 12, 2011, 11:22:12 AM »

Gary,
  I re-posted it in a section called "Home Made Products" which is part of the "Cell Electrolyte" section.
I'm absolutely thrilled to be on your WOW list! Grin Hell, now I'm even sporting one............ Roll Eyes
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Otto
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« Reply #126 on: June 05, 2011, 07:27:11 PM »

I am slowly making progress on my 22 plate cell. I media blasted the plates, drilled the inlets and outlets, applied weld on 16 and passivated the plates.  I did not have oxygen to dry the plates so I will wait a day or so for the process to complete. I am about to cut the 1/2" corian end plates but I would like to know should I make both the inlet and outlet in only one piece of the corian or inlet in the front piece and outlet in the back piece?  In addittion, is the 1/2" corian thick enough or should I use 3/4"?
Otto
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D.O.G.
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« Reply #127 on: June 05, 2011, 10:12:18 PM »

Otto,
Having both inlet and outlet on both ends (four fittings) is essential with three stacks. Even then you will have to watch for flow problems with the centre stack (I know because I've made that same mistake before). Embarrassed

I'm not sure what material Corian is, but I find 1/2" end plates thick enough to give a good seal on the fitting threads if you're coming out the sides. Are you including a metal stiffening plate to spread the clamping load ? 

Hey All,
I've had a thought while writing this.
Would it be better to have the outlet fittings offset to each other (the front on the left and the rear on the right or vice versa)? I'm thinking of compensating for road camber, cornering G forces, steep hills, etc, so that at least one fitting has uninterrupted gas flow all the time.

Or am I being too fussy? Roll Eyes
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Otto
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« Reply #128 on: June 06, 2011, 03:57:47 AM »

Corian is solid surface counter top. With my 22 plate set up +nnnnnn-nnnnnn+nnnnnn- are the end ss plates considered unipolar, if so, should the gasket between those plates and the corian end plates be a full gasket except for the inlet and outlet holes cut in the gasket?  My outlet holes are not offset, only the inlet holes.
Otto
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D.O.G.
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« Reply #129 on: June 06, 2011, 06:13:32 AM »

Corian is solid surface counter top. With my 22 plate set up +nnnnnn-nnnnnn+nnnnnn- are the end ss plates considered unipolar, if so, should the gasket between those plates and the corian end plates be a full gasket except for the inlet and outlet holes cut in the gasket?  My outlet holes are not offset, only the inlet holes.
Otto
Yes, all the positive and negative plates are unipolar plates.
I think either gasket shape would work OK for the ends. I normally keep the gaskets all the same shape, just to keep it simple.
I wasn't talking about the holes in the plates being offset, but the outlet hose barbs being offset. I was really only thinking out loud, I'm not sure there would be a practical difference in fuel economy.
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myoldyourgold
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« Reply #130 on: June 12, 2011, 10:33:14 AM »

Quote
should the gasket between those plates and the corian end plates be a full gasket except for the inlet and outlet holes cut in the gasket?  My outlet holes are not offset, only the inlet holes.

Otto, even though either gasket will work as Pete said, I have found that the same gasket, or even a thicker gasket, that you use between the plates will give some added benefit.  It gives slightly more electrolyte in the reactor (additional cooling) and helps keep the level in all the cells the same, especially in a large reactor like yours where electrolyte level and flow could be a problem because of the distance the electrolyte has to travel.  I am assuming you are feeding the electrolyte from both ends and gas is coming out of both ends.  The cell flow and level is very critical when it comes to efficiency.  Your 22 plate reactor has the electrolyte traveling at the best though 11 ports that are staggered and then out through another 11 ports but not staggered.  If levels are not exactly the same it will choose the easiest way out which might not be the best path.  You really want it to go out equally form both sides.   Balance is very critical in larger reactors.  The end pockets help but are not in themselves a complete solution to this problem.   
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myoldyourgold
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« Reply #131 on: August 14, 2011, 05:52:03 PM »

What is the best cell plate design:

I see no advantage in the diamond shape. Rectangle is in my book the best with slots on top for the exit ports. Shortest distance to get out is the best. A square would be next as long as there is slots along the top so the gas does not have to hunt for a way out same as in the rectangle.

The diamond even though bubbles might find their way out easier compared to a single hole in a square plate most of the bubbles hit the gasket on the top and get deflected slightly towards the exit port but the ones on the ends bump into the new ones coming up. By getting deflected they tend to join up when they bump into each other and form bigger bubbles and the whole process gets congested and inefficient. You can test all of this with air and a clear end plate to see exactly what is happening. There is no question in my mind after doing that test that the rectangle with narrow slots at the top are the best and square a very good second also with slots along the top.
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"Democracy is two wolves and a lamb deciding what to have for dinner. Liberty is a well-armed lamb."

ONE Liter per minute per 10 amps which just isn't possible Ha Ha
Rsldg
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« Reply #132 on: September 06, 2011, 06:37:33 PM »

I agree with that the a rectangular or square shape a great choice for cell shape, I also want to add to this that size also plays an important rolle, too big, (large) and the resistance of the plate will probably be a disadvantage.

But has any one tried the inverted T cell design?

Not sure what to call it, but it looks like a type of wet cell.

Any thoughts.


RSLDG
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Avalier
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« Reply #133 on: September 07, 2011, 08:41:46 AM »

With this best configeration. Is the center positive connection also connected to the other center plate  With only the outside plate connected to the negitive?
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myoldyourgold
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« Reply #134 on: September 07, 2011, 10:08:03 AM »

Quote
With this best configeration. Is the center positive connection also connected to the other center plate  With only the outside plate connected to the negitive?

-NNNNN+NNNNN- In this configuration there 13 plates of which 3 are unipolar and 10 bipolar plates.  A unipolar plate has the same polarity on both sides where the bipolar plate has opposite polarities on each side.  On a bipolar plate one side is + and the other side is -.  In this configuration there are 3 power connections.  Two of them are negative and one is positive.  All the other connections are through the electrolyte between the plates.  The current goes from negative to positive in each pair of plates (cell).  Remember the bipolar plates have both a negative and a positive side.  It is like this -/+ -/+ -/+ -/+ and so on through the reactor.  Notice the polarity switches back and forth all the way through.  Think of it as batteries in a flash light. That might help.  
« Last Edit: February 03, 2012, 11:15:40 AM by myoldyourgold » Logged

"Democracy is two wolves and a lamb deciding what to have for dinner. Liberty is a well-armed lamb."

ONE Liter per minute per 10 amps which just isn't possible Ha Ha
jkcerda
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« Reply #135 on: March 28, 2013, 12:02:17 AM »

I am having 22 -8"x8" plates cut and will use the 6 neutrals per stack. I know from what "D" suggest the inlet should be a 1/4" hole and off set on each plate, and the outlet 1/2" and O.K. to be aligned. How far up from the bottom and top of the plate should these holes be located?  I think my first attempt will be to sandwich the SS plates in between the outer plates without having bolts going through the SS plates.  If I find this has leaks, then I will drill holes and use the bolts through the SS plates.
Otto
hi, new here, update to this build please?

trying to make my first drycell here, input is appreciated.
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happy348
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« Reply #136 on: October 09, 2013, 08:48:14 PM »

How to find the efficiency of the Cell ??
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myoldyourgold
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« Reply #137 on: October 10, 2013, 07:50:54 AM »

To determine if you have an efficient reactor or not you must know how many volts and amps it is using and how many liters per minute of gas it makes.  Volts times Amps equals Watts.  If your reactor is using between 195 and 220 watts per litter it is pretty normal.  Below the 195 watts would be getting in the range of an efficient reactor.  To be really accurate you need to take into consideration the active area of one side of one plate.   As the active area goes up the watts required to make a litter of gas goes down.   

Here is an example:  6" x 6" plates with an active area of 25 square inches and a seven cell reactor (8 plate bipolar reactor).  Faraday's max would be about 174.4 watts or 13.8 volts  at 12.64 amps. So the closer you can get to that the more efficient you are.  The above 195 to 220 watts is just a rule of thumb that has proven to be pretty close in most cases but not all.  Many use 15 amps per liter as a rule of thuimb.

Here is another way to calculate Faraday's roughly using the same example above.  12.64 amps x 11.4 milliliters/minute x 7 the number of cells = 1008 milliliters per minute which is close to 1 LPM. To be accurate this will have to adjusted for barometric pressure.   

Now that I have confused everyone completely I will stop.     LOL    Grin
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ONE Liter per minute per 10 amps which just isn't possible Ha Ha
crockitt
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« Reply #138 on: January 02, 2014, 12:06:54 PM »

Hi I have finally started on a 22 plate unit. Due to room restrictions it is 5x5"the gaskets will be o rings due to cost and supply advantage. The ID is 4.25"so area is 15.9 square inches. the vehicle is a 4 litre ford on LPG I am hoping the unit will improve my economy. So back to the shed to drill more holes   Dave
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nutgone
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« Reply #139 on: January 16, 2014, 10:03:46 AM »

OK, here goes my first post, I wasn't sure whether to post here or in the quick questions section. I will try to be as brief as possible, but I am known for rambling on a bit.

Also, bear in mind I have done a LOT of research into this (as well as free energy stuff), I am good with electrics, OK with electronics & good at engineering (I won't go into my history here). But I have NEVER built an HHO cell before.

My Latest Project(not started yet)

I want to make 3 HHO cells, one for my car, one for my dad's car & one for a workshop blow torch (instead of oxy-acetylene).

My dad's car is a Peugeot with a basic turbo-diesel engine (not modern HDI, but old fashioned mechanical injection). It has little room under the bonnet, so I wanted to make a dry cell for this one. He has enough money to fund the project.

My car is a 1984 BMW 525e (known in USA as 528e). It has electronic fuel injection, but does NOT have a lamda sensor, just a basic air flow meter (MAF sensor), which is easy enough to hack but I will probably run a bypass tube with a control valve to let some of the intake air in around the sensor to trick it into running leaner.
This car has lots of spare room under the bonnet, but I don't really have enough money to fund this project.

The workshop needs a good size torch for welding (& perhaps cutting, but I believe I will still need an oxygen bottle for this). I will be using my DC TIG/ARC welder as power for this, which gives out around 13-20volts from 10-150amps.
But, as this is more of a car based forum, let's not get bogged down too much on the workshop thing (I won't have the money for a while anyway).

So, dry cell for my dad's car, about 6" square plates (hopefully bigger), Renault Clio expansion tank as the electrolyte vessel (cheapest I could find on eBay), probably will have 6 or 7 "cells" per side & 2 sides, so (-nnnnn+nnnnn-) (IE: keep it to around 2v per gap), neoprene rubber gasket(Huh) or large O-rings between plates & I will paint some kind of insulating varnish around the holes to help avoid current bypassing. 6mm inlets 8mm outlets (one of each on each end) in clear PVC pipe with nylon or PVC pipe fittings. Ends of cell will be plastic (probably commercial kitchen chopping boards) & I don't intend to pass the bolts through the cell plates (don't see the point).
I will use one bubbler next to tank, then a home made flashback arrestor close to intake (made using 2 fish tank stones inside short length of metal pipe with bronze wool packed between the air-stones).
I guess on turbo cars it's best to connect on the low pressure side, IE into the air filter box???

My car cell: As I have more room to play with I would like to try something a little different. I would like to use a flooded wet cell design, using 6 tubes of 1.5"-2" diameter, but still using a permanently connected electrolyte tank, like the dry cell designs.
My original idea was to use household plastic waste pipe (solvent weld or push-fit???) with stainless steel mesh electrodes wound round like a spiral inside the tube (obviously with some form of spacers to keep them from touching, maybe nylon strimmer line???). But I couldn't find any suitable mesh which was 316 or 316L, only 304L grade. So I thought why not use stainless steel tube to contain the cell but also act as the electrode. So I would use some 42mm stainless tube (as outer electrode & cell wall) about 6-8" in length, with some 1.25" tube inside, giving me a 3.3mm electrode gap all round. The outer tube would be finished off each end with plastic household waste fittings (UK 1.5" waste pipe is 42mm diameter) & the inner tube electrode would be about 2" longer so I could drill & tap stainless bolts (ends ground to a point) through the plastic fittings each end, which would hold the inner electrode in place & form the electrical connection to it. But, the stainless tube isn't cheap & trying to seal all those holes & line it all up would be a pain, so I'm now thinking of just going ahead with the 304L mesh inside plastic tubes (does 304L work OK???).

Whatever design I go with I would have 6 of these pipe cells electrically joined together in series (2v per cell) & either pipe the 6 inlets & 6 outlets into the tank or cascade them through each other (or a combination of the 2). Possibly using a circulation pump, although it would probably circulate with the gas flow, like the dry cells do. (Although I believe mesh electrode cells work best with a pump).

Both cars will have a 30-40amp PWM supply (mounted under bonnet) with the variable resistor remote-mounted inside the car next to a digital volt/amp display (all cheap on eBay from Hong Kong/China), protected under the bonnet with a 30 or 40 amp circuit breaker & use the ultimate strength of KOH (or NaOH) in distilled water, as gained from Patrick Kelly's eBooks (I think it's 28% KOH by weight). All this is in order to get the best efficiency from the cells.

Plates will be cross sanded & cleaned. Also might do the magnetic alignment thing with a battery & some wire. I will also try to condition the cells (can you tell I've been reading Patrick Kelly's eBooks???)

OK, I think that's about it. Can anyone see any massive issues? Am I being stupid anywhere here (it has been known, but go easy on me).

Oh yes, I'm based in the UK (south east), which is why I use a combination of imperial & metric measurements & why I buy my electronics from China on eBay.

Am I just making things more complicated with my flooded wet cell design?? Should I just build dry cells & stop mucking about??? It's just I think a good wet cell design should out perform a dry cell due to the lack of current bypassing the plates (I know they will be joined by the pipes, but these could have non-return valves & be coiled to put more length, & therefore more electrical resistance, in the line), but everyone seems set on dry cells these days.

Does anyone use a circulation pump on their dry cells???

Should I have posted this somewhere else???

OK that's enough! Too many questions, I will stop now.
« Last Edit: January 16, 2014, 10:16:22 AM by nutgone » Logged
nutgone
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« Reply #140 on: January 16, 2014, 10:27:11 AM »

Oh yes, I almost forgot, I am going to install a cold water mist machine in my car as well. I will adapt an ultrasonic air humidifier (once again cheap from Hong Kong on eBay) & feed this into the intake, close to the manifold.

I have heard that these alone can improve consumption considerably. Definitely not steam though, steam is of no use in the induction of an internal combustion engine, it should be water. This kind of thing....



http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/141103555915?var=440200260050&ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1438.l2649

But I guess this really is the wrong area to talk about this, so I will look elsewhere, just thought I should include my whole plan of action here.
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nutgone
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« Reply #141 on: January 16, 2014, 01:51:35 PM »

I also forgot to mention I intend to run my HHO line through a water separator, like this one....



These work best in the vertical position, so I will probably strap it to the side of the bubbler, leaving the drain valve accessible.
« Last Edit: January 16, 2014, 01:53:39 PM by nutgone » Logged
D.O.G.
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« Reply #142 on: January 20, 2014, 11:12:37 PM »

Oh yes, I almost forgot, I am going to install a cold water mist machine in my car as well. I will adapt an ultrasonic air humidifier (once again cheap from Hong Kong on eBay) & feed this into the intake, close to the manifold.

I have heard that these alone can improve consumption considerably. Definitely not steam though, steam is of no use in the induction of an internal combustion engine, it should be water. This kind of thing....



http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/141103555915?var=440200260050&ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1438.l2649

But I guess this really is the wrong area to talk about this, so I will look elsewhere, just thought I should include my whole plan of action here.

The idea is good, but I've yet to find an ultrasonic fogger/humidifier that puts out enough mist to make any difference to a running engine. 180 grams per hour = 3 grams per minute, that's not much.

I adapted this very simple home made set-up for a couple of cars.
http://www.dave-cushman.net/misc/mannject.html

On one, it made a big difference, on the other, I didn't notice any change. Undecided

Pete.
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D.O.G.
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« Reply #143 on: January 20, 2014, 11:47:34 PM »


Am I just making things more complicated with my flooded wet cell design?? Should I just build dry cells & stop mucking about??? It's just I think a good wet cell design should out perform a dry cell due to the lack of current bypassing the plates (I know they will be joined by the pipes, but these could have non-return valves & be coiled to put more length, & therefore more electrical resistance, in the line), but everyone seems set on dry cells these days.


Nutgone, I'm not saying there's anything wrong with your idea.... but, as an alternative to your wet cell, have a look at BioFarmer93's unipolar design.

http://reduceyourfuelbill.com.au/forum/index.php?topic=236.0

I've followed his work over a few years and a few forums. I don't know that it's collected in one spot, but if you look for any of his posts here or on the hhoforums site, they make good reading.

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nutgone
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« Reply #144 on: January 21, 2014, 07:00:45 AM »

Thanks for that D.O.G. once again you've given me some really good info to look through (I've only just had a chance to read through the other stuff you posted on my MAF thread & it was very interesting & highly relevant to my situation).

I've been told London Buses have been experimenting with cold water mist in some of their buses & getting very good results. I don't know the details though.

I've also recently joined an HHO forum (I think possibly "the" HHO forum), but like here there doesn't seem to be much activity. Has HHO gone out of fashion or is it just that everything has been said???

I'll have a look at those links though & come back if I have any other ideas.

Cheers.
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nutgone
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« Reply #145 on: January 21, 2014, 11:53:45 AM »

Quick update RE: the water injection idea.

I've read a few bits of interest & then headed to the workshop (a workshop I haven't properly utilised for several months, but that's another story, related to personal health & general lack of enthusiasm).

Just a few hours after my last post I have fabricated my Mk.1 water injection device, which even has a home made one way (non-return) valve on the water bottle out-take point, all made from my various stocks of copper petrol/gas & brake pipe, some 1/8" brass tube I bought for one of my stationary engines ages ago, an old plastic bottle & a ball bearing I removed from an old race that was going in the bin.

I will see if I can upload some pics later, but will probably move to a different thread, to avoid this one going off topic any further.
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Malik Shahid
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« Reply #146 on: August 30, 2017, 04:16:29 PM »

 Shocked I am a new Commer in this forum please let me know that this configuration is of dry cell or wet cell?Huh
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PDJ
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« Reply #147 on: August 30, 2017, 07:29:55 PM »

Shocked I am a new Commer in this forum please let me know that this configuration is of dry cell or wet cell?Huh

Hi Malik, welcome to the Forum.

 this original design was for a Wet Cell but the configuration can easily be used within a Dry Cell. The design and spacing allows for maximum production without excessive heat and amperage.

There is a great deal of information and past discussion on Dry Cell Design, grab a cup of coffee and start browsing through this Forum - Hope you enjoy
« Last Edit: August 30, 2017, 10:19:41 PM by PDJ » Logged

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Malik Shahid
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« Reply #148 on: September 01, 2017, 12:02:25 PM »

[q initially I am planning to make a wet cell for my small car of 0.8 ltr but after having successful I will do an experiment of wet cell.
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